I figure I'd give war a few more months before asking in this tribe again.
so is america winning any wars lately these days?
someone in this tribe should be able to give me a yes answer of some kind right?
so is america winning any wars lately these days?
someone in this tribe should be able to give me a yes answer of some kind right?
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Re: How is the war going?
Wed, December 12, 2007 - 6:43 PMIts going quite well, actually.
One of the lowest intensity conflicts the US has ever been involved in. The Surge is working, things are progressing - one of the fasest nation building excercises in US history as well. Its been well over 10 years in Kosovo and we're still not as far as we are in Iraq, politically. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Thu, December 13, 2007 - 5:03 AMquit confusing him with the facts, we all know the New York Times says its hopeless, and we all know that their writers are seldom burdened with facts. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Thu, December 13, 2007 - 8:26 AM"Its going quite well, actually."
Don't worry. I lie to myself and obscure the depressing reality of things with trivial upshots here and there. It's human nature I guess. who would really want to admit to being a failure? Not the US Administration or it's supporters to say the least.
Lowest intensity? By that you mean that we're doing almost all of the killing, right? Casualties don't count unless they are on your side, right? So, innocent civilian death isn't your weak spot...that's okay.
anyway, keep your dreams alive and don't give in to reality anytime, okay?
Peace.
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Re: How is the war going?
Thu, December 13, 2007 - 9:17 AMDo you even know what a low intensity conflict is? Compare the rate of civilian death in Iraq to the rate in Vietnam or Korea, or the non-coalition death rate in desert storm to even the outlandish and long debunked estimates of the lancet report, and you'll get a clue.
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Re: How is the war going?
Thu, December 13, 2007 - 3:16 PM[quote]Lowest intensity? By that you mean that we're doing almost all of the killing, right? Casualties don't count unless they are on your side, right? So, innocent civilian death isn't your weak spot...that's okay.[/quote]
YUP!!! Welcome to war. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 14, 2007 - 9:22 AM"Low intensity conflict (LIC) is the use of military forces applied selectively and with restraint to enforce compliance with the policies or objectives of the political body controlling the military force. The term can be used to describe conflicts where at least one or both of the opposing parties operate along such lines"
Yes - very selective and much restraint has been displayed hasn't it?
...
"US Army Field Manual
Low-intensity conflict is defined by the US Joint Chiefs of Staff (as promulgated in the US Army Field Manual 100-20) as:
... a political-military confrontation between contending states or groups below conventional war and above the routine, peaceful competition among states. It frequently involves protracted struggles of competing principles and ideologies. Low-intensity conflict ranges from subversion to the use of the armed forces. It is waged by a combination of means, employing political, economic, informational, and military instruments. Low-intensity conflicts are often localized, generally in the Third World, but contain regional and global security implications."
...
"Intelligence
Intelligence gathering is essential to an efficient basis of LIC operation instructions. Electronic and signal gathering intelligence, ELINT and SIGINT, proves largely ineffective against low intensity opponents. LIC generally requires more hands-on HUMINT methods of information retrieval."
Man, we're losing, huh? Whoa, wait, by your rational of this being an LIC, we started off losing. Our intelligence has proven to be rot with misinformation and outright fallacies over and over again.
From: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_...y_conflict
Yes, sir. I do my own research. This is the least of what I looked at and I discovered that low intensity conflict is no better than any other conflict and in no way really demands low mortality rates. What we are involved in is a subversion of a people for monetary and political gain. The Iraqis resist which is within the sovereign rights (and you would do it too if the roles were reversed), so US forces kill them. The US activities in Iraq over the last 2 decades is akin to genocide with embargoes, depleted uranium and all that fun stuff. If you're down with that, then you've got company. Unfortunately, most have them have been dejected and tried for war crimes. You guys should enlist. Go fight for your cause. You're not scared, right?
"Compare the rate of civilian death in Iraq to the rate in Vietnam or Korea, or the non-coalition death rate in desert storm to even the outlandish and long debunked estimates of the lancet report, and you'll get a clue."
To compare Iraq with Vietnam, Korea, et al is foolish. Those wars/conflicts were fought with different technologies and for different reasons. They were not total set ups on the part of the US government through outright lying to the American public (the lies were far more covert then). They were not (as much) based on lies and misinformation (to start at least) to begin combat. Though the reasons for entering those conflicts are not by any means logically accessible to the average person, they were not sold to the American Public under pretense and subterfuge (and if you contend that they were as some do, they were at least done so with more tact, dexterity and intellect). What this administration seeks to accomplish is subversion of the Middle East and the citizens of the US to it's goals. This is a war of imperialism. The goal of the administration is to create unrest in the region and move us into a global conflict that will profit the banks and their pocket dwellers for 25+ years to come as well as to encourage the willingness amongst peoples to allow governments to align for political motives that are immoral and unethical. It Orwellian and you're just a sucker if you're down for it. This war is no spur of the moment conflict brought up by terrorism and the threat of WMDs. This a decades arranged event that I remind you is designed to profit the power elite. You are just as meaningless in this conflict as I am and are the civilians threatened there and here at home. You have been slapped in the face, you have been lied to, you have been played for a fool along with the rest of us. but, what sets us apart is that you decline to object or resist. In fact, you waive your flag high in ignorance and in support of the atrocities ongoing. You support the very similar effort that which you would do you damnedest to resist if it were on your home turf. Well, soon enough it will come back to you and the rest of us for the crimes and dishonesty of this administration of liars and fools. You argue on the side of these liars and fools. I suppose that makes you just another one of them, ya?
At least there are two of you trying to keep up the bad fight. It's ignoble to say the least. See you in the internment camps soon enough.
A question or two for the two of you.
Have you ever done service in the US military (what branch and how many years)?
Are you both US citizens?
Much love and respect to you both for your opinions and willingness to share. I wish you both peace and decency.
Vlad, change your damn avatar please...lol. I've been cutting you up about this issue for a couple of years now and I'm sick of seeing it. I could deal with it if you ever won an argument, but that's not happening. So get creative...make a change. It'll feel good. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 14, 2007 - 11:21 AMYes, much restraint has been displayed, and violence is applied very selectively.
As you can see, by comparing Iraq to most other LICs in history, iraq has an extremely low casuality rate - across the board.
Have been far from heavy handed in this conflict, and we have made progress on the nation building side slower than hoped, but faster than most historical comparisons.
<A question or two for the two of you.
Have you ever done service in the US military (what branch and how many years)?
Are you both US citizens? >
what relevance is this? The answer is yes, I am a US citizen, and wore the Army uniform 10 years ago, and recently returned to service. I am exceedingly well educated on these issues as well, with a BA in four relevant majors (poli sci, psychology, middle eastern studies, and history, minor in Arabic) and am working on a Masters right now. I am a member of the Special Operations community, and while I havent been to Iraq yet, I'm eager to go, because we're doing a damn fine job over there, and I refuse to sit idly by while I watch you naysayers snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 14, 2007 - 12:34 PMI was just curious. Good for you in your studies. I'd have hoped that studies such as yours would have made you more sensitive to the damage that has been caused in the region with destabilization tactics and threats to surrounding nations such as Iran. The lies don't bother you I guess. The unpreparedness of our forces and those that supply them doesn't irk you as a military man? You don't care that our troops have been subjected to harmful circumstances without the proper guidance, protection or support? You aren't worried about much are you? -
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 14, 2007 - 2:24 PMthere is no use talking logic with sally.
he's still convinced they found WMD's in Iraq. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 14, 2007 - 2:30 PMLogic is about all I'm concerned with. No, we havent found stockpiles of WMD in Iraq, but we did find numerous violations of UN resolutions, as evidenced by programs and undeclared leftover WMD.
Yup.
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 14, 2007 - 2:36 PMWell, you're simply not representing the fact accurately.
1) destabilization is something that the liberal academic community had been arguing for years. go read any journal on the issue from about 1995 and you'll see plenty of arguments about promoting democracy in a much more aggressive fashion. the democrats were arguing that Saddam had to go under Clinton, and they were arguing for it in 2002/2003
2) the "lies" you're referring to are really more bloated intelligence judgments that had been a part of our threat assessments for over a decade
3) "unpreparedness" is really just you indulging in hindsight bias, and not understanding anything about war fighting. Iraq has, without a doubt, been the MOST nimble ground campaign the US has ever been involved in. We have shifted strategies no less than 3 times in 4 years - that's unprecedented. We have learned and adapted on the battlefield in a remarkable way, and there will NEVER be a conflict in which troops are "protected" or "supported" perfectly. That's the nature of the job - shit hits the fan when you are on the ground, and you have to make do with what you can.
4) I'm mostly worried that misguided and misinformed propaganda, such as what you're generating right now, is going unaddressed these days. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 14, 2007 - 4:35 PMWell, Mr. Dot person. you truly have your blinders on then.
the lies are constant. Look at the Iran debacle now. Are you saying that the administration stating that Iran has a current nuclear arms program is not a lie? Are you saying that when the Admin. stated that Iraq was in possession of WMDs that it was not a lie (despite the reports of numerous intelligence reports stating the contrary)? And further, the cover-up of the actual body count of US troops (no other casualties)...that's cool too right (yes, I know it's been done before but pecedence does not equate to propriety)?
"destabilization is something that the liberal academic community had been arguing for years."
This doesn't make it ethical, proper, our right as a democracy, or even a good idea. Perhaps that's why it never happened earlier? Pull your head out of your ass, man.
And on the preparedness issue, are you stating the reports of the troops on the ground from day one disssenting the admin. for lack of body and vehicle armor needed to protect our troops? I repeat...from day one. you never saw any of that?
"I'm mostly worried that misguided and misinformed propaganda, such as what you're generating right now, is going unaddressed these days."
Unaddressed? They are being "unaddressed" by whom please? By the Admin. that wouldn't have the balls to put on the line and defend themselves from this type of real intelligence? Are they unaddressed by the media? Are they unaddressed by your local officials? Are they unaddressed by the troops on the ground in Iraq? Who will contend against my statement with you then? ...Vlad maybe? That's about it really. The reason for that is that my "propaganda" is anything but a lie. It's the honest truth. Sure, you can call it propaganda if you must as it is by definition bent on harming the lying, falsely represented, misguided and criminal activity of this administration and to help along the contention for peace.
(definition - propaganda
1. information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
2. the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.
3. the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.
dictionary.reference.com/brows...ganda)
Again, pull your head out of your ass and realize that your thoughts are in the minority in the US and are hardly even a ghost of the thoughts overseas. While you contend that the ground maneuvers and strategy are doing just swell, the US has been defaced to the world by itself. The reputation of the US has been flushed and you think it's pretty cool, huh? I hope your special ops training was good. I hope that you don't die when you're in Iraq. But, I really, most especially hope that by the time you've been there for a week, you regret everything that you've said here. You're truly keeping yourself blacked out from the truth. Go watch more fox news and swallow it down with your cold beer and a McDonald's 1/4 pounder. And when you finally shit that garbage out, maybe your head will pop out too. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 14, 2007 - 7:24 PM<Are you saying that the administration stating that Iran has a current nuclear arms program is not a lie?>
The admin never said this. You're the one lying. The closest the administration has said is that Iran WANTS a nuclear weapon, or they are TRYING to get a nuclear weapon.
<Are you saying that when the Admin. stated that Iraq was in possession of WMDs that it was not a lie (despite the reports of numerous intelligence reports stating the contrary)?>
utter and complete bullshit. At no point, in the US Intelligence Community, or in the Global Intelligence community, was there ever issued an intelligence analysis that stated with ANY level of confidence that Iraq did not have WMD and WMD programs. We attacked Iraq in the 1990's under Clinton because of WMDs, and we attack the Sudan under Clinton because of an UBL/Saddam connection. You are way out of your ken here, and repeating propagandist claptrap. The "numerous" intelligence reports stating the contrary you are referring to were simply contradictory exercises, dissenting judgements that *never* made it to the national level estimates. You cannot find a SINGLE threat assessment on Iraq, from 1991-2003 that doesnt assert Saddam had WMD. Thats why Al Gore said they had them in 2002 and 2003, and Joseph Wilson said they had them in FEB 2003.
Pull *your* head out of *your* ass, and dont bother me with ignorant prattle.
<And further, the cover-up of the actual body count of US troops (no other casualties)...that's cool too right (yes, I know it's been done before but pecedence does not equate to propriety)? >
I'm not sure what you're referring to - the suicide rate among veterans I assume? The injured rate? The vast majority of all injuries sustained in Iraq are 3 day doctors visits, and back out on the front line. Soldiers get hurt - honestly, its nobody's business what our casualty rates are. You, the citizen, dont have any right to that knowledge, and its a shame that the Pentagon shares this information with the public.
<"destabilization is something that the liberal academic community had been arguing for years."
This doesn't make it ethical, proper, our right as a democracy, or even a good idea. Perhaps that's why it never happened earlier? Pull your head out of your ass, man. >
You sound like Pat Buchanan. Who are you to determine what is and isnt a good idea. We had been promoting the "stable" status quo in the region for decades, and that wasnt working. Clinton took the first steps, actively pursuing military engagement in Iraq, and ILLEGALLY trying to destabilize and overturn his regime (assassination attempts, coups, etc). Bush simply stopped half assing it.
<And on the preparedness issue, are you stating the reports of the troops on the ground from day one disssenting the admin. for lack of body and vehicle armor needed to protect our troops? I repeat...from day one. you never saw any of that?>
First off, you are once again, full of shit. We didnt even know we needed vehicle armor until the IEDs showed up - and the "lack" of body armor didnt raise its ugly head until the second wave of reservists and national guard were coming in. The supply chain in the military gets fucked up. Anyone who has been a soldier will tell you that you NEVER get what you're supposed to, when you need it. Thats simply a fact of life in the service, and it always has been. This is nothing new.
Its about 100 times better than it was during Desert Storm, which was 100 times better than vietnam.
<Unaddressed? They are being "unaddressed" by whom please? By the Admin. that wouldn't have the balls to put on the line and defend themselves from this type of real intelligence? Are they unaddressed by the media? Are they unaddressed by your local officials? Are they unaddressed by the troops on the ground in Iraq? Who will contend against my statement with you then? ...Vlad maybe? That's about it really. The reason for that is that my "propaganda" is anything but a lie. It's the honest truth. Sure, you can call it propaganda if you must as it is by definition bent on harming the lying, falsely represented, misguided and criminal activity of this administration and to help along the contention for peace. >
You most certainly are lying, as I have demonstrated quite clearly. Any statistical analysis on Iraq shows some pretty impressive leaps forward in Occupation Doctrine. We've learned so much about Nation Building, and we've seen the effects of the Defense Xformation efforts of Cohen/Rumsfeld in action - nimble reactions on a tacitcal and strategic level. You talk about armor on the humvees - it took about 1 year for that to go through the defense procurement process - thats a MAJOR feat. Do you have ANY idea how long that sort of thing has taken in the past? So soldiers were welding scrap onto their Humvees for armor - big deal - thats a time honored soldierly tradition! Welding scrap to the bottoms of choppers was common in Vietnam, yet over the course of 15 years you never saw an armor-modified copter get commissioned.
<Again, pull your head out of your ass and realize that your thoughts are in the minority in the US>
again, get a clue - the majority is often wrong, thats why the Framers built protections into the Constitution to stave off the tyranny of the majority
<and are hardly even a ghost of the thoughts overseas>
The rest of the world's opinion is about as valuable as gum on the sidewalk. The US has had to stop 2 major wars in Europe, and prevented a third one from breaking out, all in the last century. The scale of global warfare has declined steadily with the advent of American Interventionism.
< I hope that you don't die when you're in Iraq. But, I really, most especially hope that by the time you've been there for a week, you regret everything that you've said here.>
I hope I dont die too. Thanks. Of course you want me to regret it - because you dont WANT us to win.
I don't watch Fox news, I don't generally drink beer, and I never, ever, ever eat McDonalds.
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 14, 2007 - 7:27 PM>>>>>utter and complete bullshit. At no point, in the US Intelligence Community, or in the Global Intelligence community, was there ever issued an intelligence analysis that stated with ANY level of confidence that Iraq did not have WMD and WMD programs<<<<
Uuuummmmm, wait a minute, what are we in Iraq for? -
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 14, 2007 - 8:31 PMFailure to comply with UN sanctions regarding WMD, harboring and financing terrorists, and humanitarian reasons. All outlined numerous times prior to 3/2003 -
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 14, 2007 - 8:59 PMYou're right, DVD. This cat is hopeless.
Peace to all and for all a good night. I bid you a fond farewell, ..
I hope that you don't get yourself killed out there.
Write back soon.
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 14, 2007 - 9:00 PMLeast we stirred something up in this hopeless tribe.
Once again,
peace
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Re: How is the war going?
Sat, December 15, 2007 - 5:01 PM>>>>>>>Failure to comply with UN sanctions regarding WMD, harboring and financing terrorists, and humanitarian reasons. All outlined numerous times prior to 3/2003<<<<<<
Uuuuummmm, lets see now.............the U.S. has never violated any rules of the UN right? -
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Re: How is the war going?
Sat, December 15, 2007 - 7:07 PMTotally irrelevant, actually.
And come to think of it, I dont think the US has violated any UN sanctions, nope. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Sun, December 16, 2007 - 4:02 PM>>>>Totally irrelevant, actually. <<<<
Uuummmm huummm. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Sun, December 16, 2007 - 4:10 PMviolating the "rules" of the UN is not relevant to violating sanctions, particularly not ones that authorize military force. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 4:58 AM[quote]violating the "rules" of the UN is not relevant to violating sanctions, particularly not ones that authorize military force.[/quote]
why argue with him? He's not interested in reasoned facts. I figure why waste time with the unreasonable. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Thu, December 27, 2007 - 10:02 PM -
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 1:26 PMuh, the facts that state that violence has declined, and that things are improving? -
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 1:36 PMyeah right:
Car Bomb in Baghdad Market Kills 14
The Associated Press - 6 hours ago
BAGHDAD (AP) — A car bomb detonated in a busy Baghdad market on Friday, police and hospital officials said, killing at least 14 people and ending what had been a relatively quiet holiday period in the Iraqi capital.
At least one woman and a child were among the dead, a police officer said on condition of anonymity as he was not authorized to talk to the press. Both the officer and a hospital official who also would not give his name, said 14 people were killed and 64 wounded.
The popular market in Tayaran Square — a predominantly Shiite area that has been targeted by insurgents in the past — was full of shoppers heading home from Friday prayers. In late May, a car bomb killed 23 people in the square.
Violence across the country is down nearly 60 percent, according to the U.S. military, largely because of an influx of American troops in the capital and the growth of anti-al-Qaida in Iraq groups in Anbar province and elsewhere.
But unrest still plagues Diyala province just north of Baghdad, where U.S. commanders say many of the militants that held parts of the capital earlier this year have fled.
The U.S. military said it had killed four gunmen tied to al-Qaida in Iraq in an operation Friday near Muqdadiyah in Diyala. Another was killed in a predominantly Sunni area south of Baghdad.
American and Iraqi troops have increased operations in Diyala in recent weeks.
On Thursday, the U.S. military said that it had killed 12 suspected terrorists and detained 37 others during a Dec. 22 to 25 operation near Muqdadiyah.
Meanwhile, U.S. and Iraqi forces found guns, bombs and explosives underneath a chicken coup property belonging to the son of a top Sunni lawmaker.
In Seoul, South Korea's parliament voted Friday to extend the country's troop deployment in Iraq for another year, amid protests by activists opposed to the decision. South Korea has 650 troops in Iraq.
Meanwhile, an official with Iraq's oil ministry said late Thursday it had threatened to stop all crude exports to South Korea if that nation proceeds with a deal it signed with the semiautonomous Kurdistan regional government.
The central government has promised to not do business with oil firms trying to get a foothold in Kurdistan before a new oil revenue-sharing law is passed.
In early November, a consortium led by the state-run Korea National Oil Corp., or KNOC, secured exploration rights from the Kurdish regional government for an oil field in the northern province. The Korean consortium includes SK Energy, South Korea's biggest oil refiner, and GS Holdings Corp.
"The ministry has made it clear that no contracts should be signed until a new national oil law is passed," Assem Jihad, a ministry spokesman, told The Associated Press. "There was a clear warning to these companies that they will be blacklisted and excluded from any future cooperation with the ministry."
According to KNOC, through November South Korea had imported 42 million barrels of oil from Iraq, nearly triple all its imports from the country last year. Iraq is the sixth-largest provider of oil to the country.
The Kurds have signed more than a dozen contracts with foreign oil companies, insisting Iraq's constitution gives them that authority. The Iraqi Oil Ministry insists the contracts are illegal.
Iraqi authorities have drafted numerous versions of legislation to regulate the country's oil industry and share the revenues among Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish communities.
But the effort has bogged down parliament in large part because of opposition from the Kurds, who want a greater say in managing oil fields in their self-ruled area of the north.
U.S. officials view the oil law as a catalyst for investment and a means of tamping down sectarian violence. Most of Iraq's oil reserves are in the Kurdish north and the largely Shiite south. The provinces where most Sunnis live have few proven reserves, leading to suspicions they will be left out of oil profits.
Iraq is now exporting 1.9 billion barrels of oil a day, compared to 1.5 million a day earlier this year, according to U.S. statistics.
Associated Press writer Sinan Salaheddin in Baghdad and Kelly Olsen in Seoul, South Korea, contributed to this report. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 1:38 PMso say you and the U.S. military which have proven not to know very much. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 4:21 PMgosh, I guess the fact that the media you JUST CITED that agrees with me doesnt know much either.
Anyway, I'm not seperate from the US military, as I'm a part of it -
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Re: How is the war going?
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 3:36 PMAnd when are you off to Iraq? -
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Re: How is the war going?
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 6:02 PMSo now that Al Jazera has been broadcasting the actual footage of Benazir Bhutto's assaination, and the Pakistani government has already placed blame towards al-Qaeda, does'nt it seem strange when certain activites of death bombings happen, that government and this government is very quick to blame al-Qaeda?
www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31...kistan.html orld
Elections Face Possible Delay as Pakistani Tensions Grow
New York Times - 2 hours ago
Ed Wray/AP “He is a one-man calamity and the source of all the problems,” Nawaz Sharif said of President Pervez Musharraf at a news conference on Monday in Lahore.
By JANE PERLEZ
Published: December 31, 2007
LAHORE, Pakistan — The most experienced opposition politician in Pakistan, Nawaz Sharif, upped the ante in the coming confrontation with the ruling party on Monday, calling for President Pervez Musharraf’s immediate resignation and the formation of a government of national consensus.
The attack, the most stinging public rebuke of the president from Mr. Sharif since his return from exile, was delivered amid strong indications that the government would postpone elections scheduled for Jan. 8, because of the chaos after the assassination of Mr. Musharraf’s other rival, Benazir Bhutto.
While the government will not decide officially until Tuesday, officials with the Pakistani election commission said the voting would probably be delayed until the end of January or early February, despite Washington’s entreaties to hold it as scheduled.
Mr. Sharif, a former prime minister, said that his party would participate if the parliamentary elections went ahead next week, despite his recent threats to stage a boycott. Both Mr. Sharif’s party and Ms. Bhutto’s Pakistan Peoples Party, now led by her son and husband, believe they can capitalize at the polls on the deep well of sympathy over the killing and anger against the government and its security forces for not doing more to prevent it.
In Washington, the Pakistani ambassador said the Musharraf government would accept international assistance for an inquiry into the disputed circumstances surrounding Ms. Bhutto’s death, but not an independent investigation by outside experts.
Many opposition figures and Pakistani political commentators have said that damage to election offices in Sindh Province caused by the violence that erupted after Ms. Bhutto’s death, the burning of electoral rolls and what they saw as the government’s plans to rig the results virtually guaranteed that the election would be deeply flawed if it were held on Jan. 8.
Mr. Sharif suggested that his party would participate only because it had little choice but to follow the decision of Ms. Bhutto’s party on Sunday to run in the elections.
A State Department spokesman, Tom Casey, said Monday that while the Bush administration continued to support holding elections on Jan. 8, it would defer to the judgment of Pakistani political leaders on the wisdom of a delay.
“The key here is that there be a date certain for elections in Pakistan,” Mr. Casey said. “We would certainly, I think, have concerns about some sort of indefinite postponement of the elections, because I don’t think that serves the interests of anyone, certainly not the Pakistani people.”
In a news conference here in the headquarters of his faction of the Pakistan Muslim League, Mr. Sharif did not mince words in his assessment of President Musharraf. “He is a one-man calamity and the source of all the problems,” he said. “The country is burning.”
The strong words that Mr. Sharif unleashed against Mr. Musharraf in Monday’s briefing reflected the poisonous history between the men.
Like Ms. Bhutto, Mr. Sharif was twice prime minister. He was deposed during his second term in October 1999 when Mr. Musharraf was head of the Pakistani Army and staged a coup against him.
Hours before the coup, Mr. Sharif had hoped to oust General Musharraf — whom Mr. Sharif had personally elevated to the top army post — by preventing his plane from landing after a trip abroad.
But that gambit failed, and once Mr. Musharraf became president, he charged Mr. Sharif with attempted murder and corruption, then banished him to a 10-year exile in Saudi Arabia.
Mr. Sharif returned to Pakistan last month, and since then has taken a tougher stand against Mr. Musharraf than did Ms. Bhutto, including a demand that the president restore the judges of the Supreme Court and High Courts who were fired during the recent six-week emergency rule.
Expanding on Nawaz Sharif’s comments at the news conference here, his brother, Shahbaz, also an experienced politician, said he was confident that the mood against the Musharraf government had turned so sour that the two main opposition parties would win the election, even if it was delayed a bit.
Shahbaz Sharif was chief minister of Punjab Province, one of the most powerful jobs in Pakistan, during his brother’s second term.
“The Pakistan Peoples Party will win seats, and we will defeat the Q League hands down,” he said, referring to the faction of the Pakistan Muslim League made up of Mr. Musharraf’s followers. “Even if they try to rig, we will win. The atmosphere has changed against them. The courage to rig has diminished.”
He accused the current chief minister of Punjab, Chaudhry Pervez Elahi, of planning to distribute forged ballot papers and to create “ghost” polling places in order to swing the election in favor of Mr. Musharraf’s party. “Ghost” polling places are extra polling places that are often created in Pakistani elections to enhance the vote totals of one side or another.
The best solution to the current charged political atmosphere, Shahbaz Sharif said, would be for Mr. Musharraf to allow a government of “national consensus” to be formed in consultation with the opposition parties. This government’s chief task would be to prepare for elections 45 days to three months after taking office.
The new government could form a neutral and powerful election commission to replace the current politically biased one, a move that was more likely to ensure free and fair elections, he said. “The Election Commission is a pawn; it has no legitimacy,” he said.
Such a government would also be in a better position to investigate the still uncertain circumstances surrounding the assassination of Ms. Bhutto, because it would be perceived as being more neutral, he said.
The idea of a consensus government that would hold office until new elections has gained currency in Pakistan’s news media since Ms. Bhutto’s death. If steps were not taken to form a consensus government, Shahbaz Sharif said, he believed the public anger could spin out of control.
The fury in the province of Sindh, the home base of the Bhutto family, was so intense that the possibility was raised that it might split off as a separate entity. There were strong undercurrents for separation from the federation of Pakistan in the province of Baluchistan and North-West Frontier Province as well, Shahbaz Sharif said. But elsewhere in the country, there were only scattered reports of violence on Monday, primarily in Hyderabad and nearby Nawabshah, the hometown of Ms. Bhutto’s husband.
“The international community must see that Pakistan can sink into deep turmoil,” he said. In order to stave off the potential chaos, he said, Mr. Musharraf had to be pressed to take the right steps, just as he was persuaded to step down as army chief and to end the six-week emergency rule imposed last month.
He added, “If Benazir Bhutto’s killing is not investigated fairly and elections are not free and fair, and if a neutral caretaker government is not put in place, it can lead us to a crisis beyond anyone’s reach.”
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Re: How is the war going?
Mon, December 31, 2007 - 7:15 PMno idea - as soon as they let me -
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Re: How is the war going?
Tue, January 1, 2008 - 10:05 AMDude, you are a punk!
You have been talkin this shit for years. literally YEARS since you have been on tribe.
I know plenty that are and are going to Iraq, wanting and not.
My brother went and is most likely there now doing some honorific shit.
And liking it.
What's your excuse?
Or is that your excuse?
You're physically able right? -
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Re: How is the war going?
Tue, January 1, 2008 - 10:27 AM
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Re: How is the war going?
Tue, January 1, 2008 - 10:39 AMuh, dude, less than 10% of the army is deployed to Iraq. there's only 4000 soldiers in my job, and I think all of us have volunteered to go. There's a *waiting list* -
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Re: How is the war going?
Tue, January 1, 2008 - 3:41 PMI'm not into name calling but dude, YOU ARE A PUNK BITCH!
You post this:
uh, "dude, less than 10% of the army is deployed to Iraq. there's only 4000 soldiers in my job, and I think all of us have volunteered to go. There's a *waiting list*
From your comfortable weak assed chair in AMERICA, (most likely in middle America where the most stupid live) and talk a ton of shit.
Go to IRAQ you dumb shit!
What is your problem?
SCARED?
I bet you are you dumb scared bitch.
I'd be more than happy to meet you in an alley and beat the shit outta ya without thinking about it. But I am not a violent person.
That is not to say I wouldn't do it. -
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Re: How is the war going?
Tue, January 1, 2008 - 3:49 PMFact is, you are THE most dumbest person on Tribe and most likely THE WORLD.
That is a fact.
You are dumber than those in this tribe that think we need to "give war a chance".
Not gonna ask you how it feels to be that dumb.
I dont wanna know what it's like to be that dumb.
DUDE YOU ARE STUPIDLEY DUMB!
That is a fact.
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